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Pfizer Says it's Time for COVID Booster Shots, CDC and FDA Say No; Culture Wars, Big Lie Take Center Stage at CPAC Convention; Biden Defends Pulling U.S. Out of Afghanistan as Taliban Advance. Aired 10- 10:30a ET

Aired July 9, 2021 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


JIM SCIUTTO, CNN NEWSROOM: Areas with low rates of vaccinations.

[10:00:01]

Now, those were people -- areas where people are not getting vaccinated. The delta variant is spreading more quickly. And, by the way, unvaccinated people make up more than 99 percent of those dying from COVID in recent weeks.

CNN Senior Medical Correspondent Elizabeth Cohen here to help us walk through this. I wonder if you could describe to people what is going on here. I mean, Pfizer, in effect, says they're working on a booster shot if needed. FDA and CDC, I imagine, trying to comfort vaccinated people to say that, today, you don't need such a booster, is that right?

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: That is absolutely right. And to be clear, what is happening here is that Pfizer yesterday announced, hey, we're going to apply to the FDA for emergency use authorization for a third shot, so a third shot of the same thing as the two shots that people have already gotten just a third version of it, so that you could have three shots instead of two with that third shot acting as a booster.

But there was a lot of surprise about why Pfizer is going to be doing that, why are they applying for this authorization, why is it necessary. They talked about waning immunity but there aren't studies that show waning immunity and Pfizer didn't offer up any evidence of waning immunity. The only data that they -- and this is a pharmaceutical company, right, they're supposed to specialize in data. The only data they pointed to is this Israeli data.

So take a look, Jim. You and I discussed this when it came out this week. So, Israeli data, which was presented, again, with very little back-up, very little science behind it, that the shot is 64 percent effective at preventing infection and this is still with the delta variant being predominant, and 93 percent effective at preventing severe disease and hospitalization. These are current numbers.

That second number is the more important, 93 percent effect at preventing severe disease and hospitalization. That is an amazingly excellent vaccine. Few vaccines are that effective. Why is Pfizer all of a sudden basically saying almost like its own product isn't working as well as they would like. It doesn't make sense.

The other thing that doesn't make sense is that the biggest problem with vaccination in the United States right now is that one-third of Americans who are eligible for the shot aren't getting it. And so for Pfizer come out and say, the shots we have out there, we're not sure they're working so well, that is the opposite of what you want to be doing right now. You want to be encouraging confidence.

But let's take a look at what the CDC and the FDA had to say in response, because that is super important. What they said is, Americans who have been fully vaccinated do not need a booster shot at this time. There is a lot of talk that these federal agencies are not talking really to Pfizer, what is going on here?

So Pfizer recently put out a statement, this just in from them. They said, we regularly discuss our entire research program with regulators and public health authorities in the U.S. and other countries around the world. Jim?

SCIUTTO: Elizabeth Cohen, thanks very much.

COHEN: Thanks.

SCIUTTO: Joining me now, Dr. Eric Topol, he's a cardiologist, professor of molecular medicine for Scripps Research. Good to have you on, Doctor.

I mean, listen, sadly, disinformation peddlers are going to jump on this to increase questions that are already out there for the vaccine- hesitant. So break through that morass for us, if you can, and speak to people right now who may be watching that haven't been vaccinated. What does the data show us about what the current vaccines do to protect people and the people around them?

DR. ERIC TOPOL, CARDIOLOGIST AND PROFESSOR OF MOLECULAR MEDICINE, SCRIPPS INSTITUTE: Well, great to be with you, Jim. I think the great news here is, of course, the delta variant with respect to the vaccine in the United States, the mRNA vaccine, there is nothing to worry about. That is the efficacy race for preventing infections, no less hospitalizations and fatalities. It is extremely high.

And so the concern here that Elizabeth just reviewed with you about this booster is an unknown because the data hasn't been released that Pfizer actually talked about. But everything we have suggested really solid protection from the Pfizer, Moderna vaccines that are 96 percent of the vaccines that are used in the United States.

SCIUTTO: I mean, there is a parallel here, right? It is the way flu shots are. People get them every year because the flu changes every year and you're going to have to update your body's immunity against updated pathogens. I mean, to play devil's advocate for a moment, is there a silver lining to this in terms of what Pfizer is up to that early development of a booster to get on top of the delta variant, if necessary, is kind of good to have in your back pocket as it were?

TOPOL: Yes, exactly. So that is a key point, Jim. That is people of advanced age or immune-compromised, they will probably need a booster shot. Because we know that even though our neutralizing antibodies reduce normally after a few months, we have these memory B-cells that are on demand to make antibodies and T-cells. But in the elderly and the immune-compromised people, they are not as good in that situation, months later, after vaccination.

[10:05:05]

So it is likely, even though there aren't any data to show it yet, that people who have the mRNA vaccines could benefit from a booster shot. And that is probably where this will settle out over time, that certain of those at high risk, as you say, it is good to have this but the way it was presented that it might be for everybody was quite a stir.

SCIUTTO: Yes. You're in California. I'm in Washington, D.C. These are both high vaccination rates parts of the country. But as Dr. Fauci has said, I mean, we basically had a tale of two countries, high vaccination places and places particularly in the south where you have rates below a third of the population and then nationally of about a third of the country that is refusing to take these things.

Where does that leave as a country in terms of preventing another wave of infections, particularly as the delta variant takes hold?

TOPOL: Yes, this is really important to note. As you mentioned with the map earlier, this is a diffuse beginning of a wave. When we faced the alpha variant, the one that originated in the U.K. in January and February, we basically squashed it. It only was in Michigan that was felt the bump. Here, it doesn't look good because not just Missouri and Arkansas, which is the epicenter, but it is starting to show in so many states. And now not just the case increases but the hospitalization increases as well.

So this doesn't suggest that we're going to get away as we did in the early part of the year. The delta variant looks like it is going to be more of a problem because of the lack of vaccination especially.

SCIUTTO: Such a shame, a workable, free, widely available vaccine helps the people and the people around them. God, let's just hope it breaks through. Dr. Eric Topol, thanks so much.

TOPOL: Thank you, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Politics now, conservatives are gathered in Dallas today for the second CPAC convention of 2021. For years, the event was a place for conservative voices and conservative ideas. But this year the culture wars, the big lie are the focus.

The gathering of conservative leaders comes as House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy has struggled to keep the more extreme members of his conference in check. It doesn't appear he even wants to.

Joining me now is CNN Political Director David Chalian. So there was a time that there was sort of a limit for Republican members of the House, Steve King, you defend white supremacy, you're going to get your committee appointments taken away. But we have Marjorie Taylor Greene and Lauren Boebert making Nazi comparisons to simple health measures. We've got Paul Gosar hanging out with white supremacists, but the standards have changed for the party, apparently, under McCarthy.

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Well, clearly, we have to always look at Kevin McCarthy through a singular lens, right, which is that he wants to be speaker of the House. So everything he does is through that. And I think -- so his actions sort of tell us that he thinks the path for Republicans winning back the majority and for him winning to be speaker of the House is to not excommunicate these folks from the party in some way but to try and manage it inside of the family in some fashion.

SCIUTTO: What does manage mean? I mean, giving a free pass to anti- Semitism.

CHALIAN: Exactly, which shows you, I think, right now the struggle that is happening with the Republican Party for its own identity. Because what that is in most people's definition is weak leadership, right? That's what that is. What Kevin McCarthy sees is this is my path to power.

SCIUTTO: Is there a struggle that exists today, right, given that the folks who stick their neck out? Liz Cheney, she's out of leadership. I mean, James Lankford, all he did was not challenge the election results because he saw what happened on January 6th when he was going to vote for it and changed his mind, now he's a target of his own party and his own state. What is the state of the fifth column effort within the Republican Party to take it back to something more reasonable, moderate?

CHALIAN: So, next year, we're going to see, because of the midterms, a whole series of Republican primaries, Jim. And in that, we're going to get the answer. Does Jim Lankford win his primary in Oklahoma and back that challenge and get reelected to the Senate? It very well may, right? But this is such the smallest slice of Republicans that you're pointing out right now, folks like Liz Cheney, I mean, one of ten that voted to impeach the president. Obviously, this is not where the life force of the party is right now.

So --

SCIUTTO: It is not for sure. It's not.

CHALIAN: Well, it certainly seems that way. And, look -- I mean, the way I look at it is we have no indication yet that Trump is losing his grip on control. In fact, everything that we see about the way Republican officeholders are behaving is to suggest fealty to Trump, fealty to the big lie is still sort of a central team of what animates the Republican base.

And that's why, as you noted at the CPAC gathering this weekend in Texas, we're going to see a lot about election integrity and other cultural issues.

[10:10:00]

SCIUTTO: Well, it's interesting. One of the most disturbing developments, it seems to me, is that not only is the big lie a litmus test for candidates in 2022 and '24, I mean, so of them -- many of them are running on it, but now you have Trump defending January 6. He's not just not calling them out, he's defending January 6 insurrectionists, as are some GOP members of Congress. I mean, is January 6 revisionism now a new litmus test for the party?

CHALIAN: Well it certainly has been the case that since, I would say, within days after January 6, there has been an attempt by some in the Republican Party to whitewash the events, to not consider this the moment of peril that is was for our democracy.

And so I do think there is a risk we see, again, Liz Cheney is a perfect example, to some Republicans going out on the (INAUDIBLE) and say, no, no, no, there has to be accounting for this, there has to be a full historical account for this to ensure that this doesn't happen. That is not where the majority of Republicans are at all. I mean, whether it is being described as a day where just like tourists were walking through the Capitol, or, as you say, other attempts to simply erase the import of what occurred on January 6.

I don't know if it is a litmus test. i think it is certainly part of where the Republican Party is on Capitol Hill right now. Just look at numbers. There is very little doubt. And I don't think this gets resolved until Republican voters resolve it through their primary processes.

SCIUTTO: Or don't, right?

CHALIAN: Yes, or don't.

SCIUTTO: David Chalian, always good to have you break it down.

CHALIAN: You too, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Powerful thunderstorms, lots of them, Thursday in New York, wreaked havoc both above and below ground, as flash floods closed highways, crippled New York's subway. Look at how you had to get in and out there. Subway riders wading through knee deep water in flooded stations.

Brynn Gingas, she is outside one of those stations this morning. I mean, has it cleared up there? Did the water drain away somewhere?

BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. And thank gosh, we are not having any rain to add on to anything that caused problems yesterday evening into today's morning commute. So that is good news, Jim. But as you just said, those were some jaw-dropping videos that were circulating on social media that were really grim reminders of how fast it can get pretty bad here in a major metropolitan city.

But you can see here, as we look down into the subway, that is all clear, but from those videos, you saw people literally putting on garbage bags over their bodies to way through the water. Some people just braving it in their clothes as is, but for dry for now.

And the MTA, which oversees the transit system here in New York City saying there are actually no delays currently due to any weather issues. It wasn't just a subway though, Jim. I think we have also some video to show you from the highways, particularly in the Bronx here in the New York City of the Major Deegan Expressway, which was shut down because of the quick flooding that came in from those thunderstorms ahead of Elsa. It wasn't even Elsa causing this. People got stranded. The FDNY, the NYPD had to actually get two cars that were flooded and save some people. Luckily, no injuries due to all of that.

But, again, just a reminder of how bad it can get -- how quickly it can get that bad in a city like New York City, but those storms now heading to the northeast, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Yes, shut down the Deegan, shut down a big part of the city. Brynn Gingras, thank you so much.

GINGRAS: Yes.

SCIUTTO: Still to come this hour, Democrats and civil rights leaders scrutinized President Biden over his handling -- the challenge to voting rights. Is the president doing enough to curb ongoing Republican efforts to restrict voting access across country? The chair of the Democratic National Committee will join me just ahead.

Plus, the Taliban is gaining ground in Afghanistan and fast as the U.S. pulls out troops. President Biden maintains the withdrawal is best for both the U.S. and Afghanistan. Is that the truth? We're live from the Pentagon and Kabul next.

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[10:15:00]

SCIUTTO: New this morning, the Taliban is claiming it now controls 85 percent of Afghanistan's territory. We should be clear the Afghan government denies that. But few dispute the Taliban's fast advance. President Biden, however, remains strongly defensive of his decision to pull all American troops out of Afghanistan by August 31st, insisting it is now up to the Afghans to defend themselves and build their country.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, U.S. PRESIDENT: Nearly 20 years of experience has shown us that the current security situation only confirms that just one more year fighting in Afghanistan is not a solution but a recipe for being there indefinitely.

I will not send another generation of Americans to war in Afghanistan with no reasonable expectation of achieving a different outcome.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Covering this as only CNN can, CNN's Anna Coren, she is live in Kabul, Afghanistan, CNN's Barbara Starr live from the Pentagon.

Anna, let's begin with you. You have reports among many of the Taliban advance, one of seizing a key district in Western Afghanistan that has a border crossing with Iran. I mean, what is happening in these places? Are the Afghan forces just up and running away?

ANNA COREN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the government says the government forces are trying to recapture this particular trade gateway. It is one of the biggest between Afghanistan and Iran. Millions of dollars worth of fuel and supplies cross here.

[10:20:03]

And as you say, the Taliban has seized this. This has been confirmed by a customs chief.

There is another border crossing in Herat Province that has also fallen, it borders Turkmenistan. But this just goes to show the sweeping gains that the Taliban are making at very pivotal points, basically cutting off Afghanistan in an attempt to have that control and place the government in a very perilous position.

These gains obviously happening in the north. While tens of thousands of people are being displaced, the fighting continue and the Taliban delegation, of all things, turning up in Moscow to meet with representatives of the Russian government to act as if it is this alternative government.

You mentioned that figure, 85 percent of the territory it claims to have seized. The government denies this. But it goes on to say that humanitarian organizations can continue with its operations. It says that schools and hospitals will remain open, that those border crossings and customs offices that have been seized will remain operational.

So you have this Islamist insurgency group trying to portray itself as this alternative government, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Yes. Well, in the past, they've done horrible things to keep girls' schools closed, among other activities.

But, Barbara, President Biden, he's got just a few weeks left to make some key decisions on the future of Afghanistan, one urgent concern, of course, the safety of translators who worked for the U.S. military, U.S. government. What steps is the Biden administration taking?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, there is very little maneuvering room on any of this, because, as you say, time is running short, the president setting that new August deadline for everybody to be out.

He says that they are going to start having some flights start moving some people in addition to those already moved Afghans who want to get out who worked perhaps as translators, worked for the U.S. operation in Afghanistan and feel they're under threat by the Taliban. But, look, that could wind up being tens of thousands of people. Not at all clear how that will happen.

And the key there is to keep the airport in Kabul open. That is the only way out of Afghanistan. And right now, they are working, the U.S. working with the Turks, who are running a lot of the security operations at the airport to try and lockdown the security arrangements. That is pivotal because you have -- if the airport is not secure, you really can't keep the U.S. embassy open, you can't keep other embassies open. They need a secure airport to be able to operate to be able to come and go.

And the president has to make some decisions about whether he wants airstrikes against the Taliban in support of Afghan forces. Look, exactly what you said, Jim, the Taliban, they are an insurgent group, they are carefully maneuvering, they are picking things off one by one, fostering the sense of inevitability perhaps that they will come to power.

SCIUTTO: Barbara, as you know, this withdrawal decision was made over the advice of President Biden's military advisers. You speak to a lot of people in the Pentagon. As they watch this happen, are they deeply concerned about the future of that country?

STARR: I think there is a very much sense of distress. Look, U.S. military commanders, U.S. troops spent 20 years, multi-generation of military families deploying to Afghanistan trying to make it all work through any number of scenarios. The U.S. military, the top brass, had really proposed keeping about 2,500 troops there to provide security to be on the spot to conduct counter-terror missions if they were needed. They thought 2,500 troops could keep things in check.

But the president made a different decision very critically. His view was if you broke your word to the Taliban, if you kept troops there, you might have the Taliban retaliate by attacking U.S. troops and only having to bring in more troops and a new cycle of combat operations. Not what the president wanted to because he simply very strongly felt there was not a different outcome to be had.

SCIUTTO: We'll see how it looks in the coming weeks and months. Barbara Starr, Anna Coren in Kabul, thanks very much.

Ahead, President Biden is under pressure from civil rights leaders, other Democrats, to do more to protect voter rights across country as Republicans pass new restrictions. The chair of the Democratic National Committee will join me next.

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[10:25:00]

SCIUTTO: Rights leaders are urging President Biden to do more to protect voting rights, calling GOP efforts to curb ballot access, quote, an effort to impose a system of American apartheid. 17 states have already enacted 28 new laws making it simply harder to vote, harder for you to vote. Dozens of other bills with restrictive provisions are moving through other state legislatures.

Vice President Harris announced yesterday that Democrats will invest $25 million in a program aimed at countering voter suppression.

Joining me now, Jaime Harrison, he's the chair of the Democratic National Committee. Thanks so much for joining us this morning.

JAIME HARRISON, DIRECTOR, DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL COMMITTEE: Thank you so much for having me, Jim.

[10:30:00]

SCIUTTO: All right. So $25 million to invest in voting rights. I mean, to quote the untouchables, I mean, is this bringing a knife to a gun.