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Trump Wing of GOP Has Establishment on Its Heels; Boat Capsizes Off San Diego Killing 3, Injuring More than 20 People; Arizona GOP Conducts Partisan Audit of 2020 Election; Questions on Effects of COVID Vaccine Effects on Fertility; Soccer Match Postponed After Hundreds Storm Field in Protest; The Story of Late Night. Aired 8-9p ET

Aired May 2, 2021 - 20:00   ET



PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: And while you're there, nominate someone you think should be a CNN Hero.


SEN. SUSAN COLLINS (R-ME): We are not a party that is led by just one person. We need to be accepting of differences in our party.

CINDY MCCAIN, WIFE OF THE LATE SENATOR JOHN MCCAIN: The election is over. Biden won. I know many of them don't like the outcome. But, you know, elections have consequences.

DR. JONATHAN REINER, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: It's time for the CDC to start embracing this kind of bifurcated strategy and perhaps giving the unvaccinated a hint of what life can be like if they become vaccinated.

DR. ASHISH JHA, DEAN, BROWN UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF PUBLIC HEALTH: If we keep vaccinating Americans, I think by July 1st, we're going to see much of America feel close to normal.

NATASHA CHEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: A North Carolina City rocked by protests prepares to bury an African-American man killed by deputies.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are going to continue to apply pressure. Until the need comes off our midst.


BROWN: And good evening to you. I'm Pamela Brown, you are live in the CNN NEWSROOM on this Sunday. Great to have you along with us tonight.

And we begin this hour with an ugly public battle playing out among Republicans. It reached a fever pitch last night when Senator Mitt Romney barely avoided a censure at the Utah GOP convention after he was showered with boos. Well, this morning Republican Senator Susan Collins reacted.


COLLINS: I was appalled. Mitt Romney is an outstanding senator who serves his state and our country well. We are not a party that is led by just one person.


BROWN: Meanwhile, Congresswoman Liz Cheney is also facing the wrath of the Trump wing. She's the number three Republican in the House but after criticizing Trump, supporting the commission into the insurrection, and fist bumping President Biden at his joint address, she may be stripped of her leadership role.

The Trump takeover of the party even spurring media shy former President Bush to deliver some harsh words about the party's direction.


GEORGE W. BUSH, FORMER PRESIDENT: You know, it's -- to me that basically says that we want to be extinct. But I know this, that if the Republican Party stands for exclusivity, you know, it used to be country clubs, now evidently it's white Anglo-Saxon Protestantism, then it's not going to win anything.


BROWN: Well, let's bring in a pair of CNN political commentators. Former national coalitions director for the 2020 Biden campaign, Ashley Allison, joins us, along with former communications director for GOP senator, Ted Cruz, Amanda Carpenter.

Ladies, great to see both on this Sunday night.



BROWN: All right. So, Amanda, I am really looking forward to getting your thoughts on this. I mean, watching this Liz Cheney's situation playing out is exactly why some Republicans are scared to speak out. That and the Romney situation. But still, how much is Republican silence over the years to blame for enabling Trump and his conspiracy -- conspiracies, rather, and letting it all fester among their base?

CARPENTER: Yes, I mean, listen, the more you go along with it, the more you stay silent, the more it builds, and the harder it becomes to beat back. I mean, we are in this mess with the big election lie and the insurrection I think because Republicans decided to let Donald Trump just make his arguments, you know, after it was clear that he lost in November. They gave him a month to spin this thing up, fundraise, to organize activists, and that led to the insurrection in the Capitol.

And still, still to this day, there are Republicans who think that if they just look away from this, it will magically go away. The Trump problem will never magically go away. His nomination is theirs -- is Trump for the taking in 2024. So the only hope of beating this thing back is if people are willing to do what Liz Cheney and Mitt Romney are willing to do. To stand there, to take the boos, and be very firm in your belief that Donald Trump inciting a riot that put our democracy and national security at risk is not acceptable. Period.

BROWN: But, and Ashley, I'm going to get to you in just a second. But, Amanda, how do they survive politically if they take that stance? I mean, you're seeing these Republicans who have spoken out, get censured left and right, they're, you know, losing members of their constituents who are all die-hard Trump fans. How do they survive politically? And if they don't survive, do you have concerns that the more fringe candidates such as a Marjorie Taylor Greene would take their place?

CARPENTER: Sure. There is absolutely no guarantee of success if you take the path of Liz Cheney and Mitt Romney are.


There is a Republican, Michael Wood, down Texas 6th District, he tried to make that argument in a special election runoff--


BROWN: Twenty-five hundred votes.

CARPENTER: Yes. And you know what, it didn't work. People have to dig in and say making the argument is worth it. This is - it may be a generational fight, Pam. It's going to take a lot of people willing to lose to dig in and talk to people in a one-on-one way if this thing is going to be saved.

BROWN: So, Ashley, I want to go to you. I mean, many Democrats, including Biden, hope that moderate Republicans might be more willing to compromise and work together because of all this. But that really hasn't happened. Why do you think that is?

ALLISON: Well, I think what the Biden administration is trying to do is really make the case that the elected officials are not necessarily representing the Republican constituents in their district. For example, the American Rescue Plan, on overwhelming majority of people support the plan because they feel the hardship of this pandemic, and yet Kamala Harris had to break the tie vote because no Republicans wanted to support it.

I'm not surprised because despite Donald Trump being kind of off the rail these last couple of months, this has not been something that happened in the last month. This is how he ran his campaign in 2015, 2016. It's how he ran his entire administration and many of these moderate Republicans sided with him, sided with him on his judicial confirmation, sided with him on his tax plan.

So while they might not agree the fact that this big lie and that the election was not stolen because we know it wasn't, the policies that Donald Trump is pushing are quite similar to the policies that a Susan Collins or a Mitt Romney are actually aligned with.

BROWN: Except when you look at other issues like the deficit adding trillions to the deficit and so forth, on trade. But I want to ask you, Amanda, about Vice President Pence. He obviously, you know, was there when the Capitol was attacked and he acted essentially like that never happened when he spoke this week. Let's listen.


MIKE PENCE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT: Thank you for the privilege of serving as your vice president and the privilege of serving alongside President Donald Trump. It's the greatest honor of my life.


BROWN: What's your reaction?

CARPENTER: You know, a lot of Republicans like me who, you know, were very upset with how things happened thought that there would be a big movement among the MAGA Republicans to just memory hold the insurrection. But I actually see -- think what you're seeing is worse than that. You're essentially seeing people say it happened and it was no big deal.

Mike Pence, when he started to speak again, one of the first things he came out and said is that he had concerns with election integrity, which is, you know, kind of the code safe word for the big election lie, but trying to dress it up. But Mike Pence is going to try to whistle pass this Trump graveyard of lies and conspiracy theories, and coalesce all the establishment MAGA support to be the 2024 nominee.

And it's just incredible to me that people think they can look past the insurrection. OK, one impeachment, the second impeachment may be not so much. But that is definitely what Mike Pence is attempting here. And there's a lot of people who would be happy to let him get away with it.

BROWN: All right, thanks so much, Amanda Carpenter, Ashley Allison, great to have you on. Thank you both and look forward to having you on again soon.

And ahead this hour, a deadly accident in the waters off San Diego. Officials say three people are dead and more than 20 are in the hospital after a possible smuggling boat, quote, "disintegrated."

And we got you covered with another COVID Q&A. This time with fertility doctor Natalie Crawford.

Plus the NASA SpaceX mission makes a historic return to earth.



BROWN: Well, we are following breaking news tonight. A tragic accident with fatalities in the waters off Southern California today. Rescuers in San Diego responding to a very overcrowded boat that capsized and smashed apart on a reef and rough seas. About 30 people were forced into the water, at least three of those people died.

New pictures right here coming in, just taken -- just into CNN taken by first responders. And this is the debris spotted in the water. When that boat disintegrated on the rocks.

CNN's Josh Campbell joins me now with more details.

Josh, officials are now convinced they know why this boat was so overcrowded and why it was in those dangerous waters.

JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Pamela. Officials say that what began as a massive rescue operation turned into a mass casualty incident as this boat crashed in a reef off the coast of San Diego this morning. Officials saying that at least three people have died as a result of that. Over 20 were taken to the hospital.

One official said that they received an initial indication that there was one person on board this vessel. However, as they started their response effort, they realized that there were over 30 people on board. We just heard from officials a short time ago, who said, that they believe they know the reason why this vessel was transiting up the San Diego coast, saying that it was likely a human smuggling operation. Take a listen.


JEFF STEPHENSON, U.S. CUSTOMS AND BORDER PROTECTION: Every indication from our perspective is that this was a smuggling vessel, used to smuggle migrants into the United States illegally. We haven't confirmed the nationality of the people involved. But our agents are with many of them at the hospital. And the man who we believe was the operator, agents are with them, and the suspected smuggler. But the investigation is still unfolding.


CAMPBELL: Now one official said at that press conference that they have seen in the past smugglers attempting to, in his words, blend in with shipping traffic up and down the San Diego coast, that part of the country obviously home to U.S. naval installation as well as commercial traffic and pleasure cruises.


That official saying they've seen that in the past where these smugglers will try to work their way up the coast trying to blend in. Now for his part, the captain of the vessel, officials say that they believe they have identified him. He is currently in custody. He is under investigation. It's worth pointing out the federal law, Pamela, provides stiff penalties for human smuggling especially for any type of incidents that might result in someone's death which could include up to life in prison -- Pamela.

BROWN: And we know there are three dead at least.

Josh Campbell, thank you so much.

And on the phone with me now is Lieutenant Rick Romero. He is with the lifeguard unit of San Diego's Fire and Rescue.

Lieutenant, thank you for coming on the show. If you would, walk us briefly through what happened today when the call for help came in. What did your first responders see when they got there?

LT. RICK ROMERO, SAN DIEGO FIRE AND RESCUE LIFEGUARD: Well, Pamela, I was one of the first responders on scene and it was a big mess along the coastline. There were people actively drowning, getting pulled off by rip currents. There were people on the base of the shoreline there. First report was there's bystanders doing CPR down below. So there's a lot going on when we first arrived on scene and trying to kind of take in what we need to do, to do the rescues. That was the first response.

BROWN: Wow, I mean, just to show up and you're seeing people drowning. I mean, how do you even know what to do in that situation when there are so many different scenarios going on? People dying, people drowning, out calling for help. What was that like and how did you know how to go about rescuing them?

ROMERO: Well, that's what we do. We train all the time for that obviously. But we have more than a lot of people, it's -- we need to get some more resources here especially on the medical side. So we had two lifeguard jet skis coming, two rescue boats on scene. We picked up seven people in the water who were actually drowning. Two of them were pronounced a little bit later on when they were transported back to the dock.

And then just as the number started coming in, how many people were actually involved, the number kept on escalating so we're running out of ambulances, putting in a call for greater assistance to bring in more medical attention, so that's what we did. There was a lot of people there. Multiple agencies and the goal is to make rescues, provide people with great patient care and transfer as quickly as possible.

And then, you know, take into account of what's going on, what are the dangers, what were the assessment, can you quickly assess someone and move on. All that kind of took place in a pretty quick amount of time.

BROWN: So Customs and Border Protection officials are almost positive that this was a human smuggling operation that went horribly wrong. How often do you see that type of boat off of San Diego, and how concerned are you that this has the potential to happen again?

ROMERO: Well, it's a pretty big event and those happen on a weekly basis coming in. So those are the ones that we just know about, not as dramatic as far as this. Just trying to get spotted and apprehended by Customs and Border Protection. But on this one, we don't really think about -- we just want to make the rescue, we want to save people.

We don't care where they're from or how -- make the rescue and provide a great service, to get them out of harm's way. A lot of people are basically non-swimmers. So you're looking at people who can't swim. They're jumping in the water to try to save themselves and they don't even know how to swim. So unfortunately, you know, people do die. It does happen.

BROWN: But you did your best to rescue those that you could and we all thank you for your heroic efforts as well as your colleagues.

I want to ask, though, you know, you said this is what we're trained to do, we rescue people. How did this compare to past rescues you've done, similar rescues?

ROMERO: You know, this is probably the biggest event in my 28-year history as a lifeguard, having so many people in one spot, having -- we do drills on some mass casualties but having it actually really happen in real lifetime, and assessing it, and going, hey, you know, we need a lot of help here. This is a lot of moving parts and all of a sudden you start getting more and more info that, OK, now it's 15, OK, now it's 20. Wait a minute, now it's up to 30 people are involved in this as victims. It's pretty tough. So it does take a lot of time and then assessing all that information and trying to get resources, and talking to all the rescuers and getting all like coordinated, it's a pretty huge effort.


We're just one small part of this giant picture of emergency services. There's multiple agencies there, both for law enforcement and for rescue, and we practice and talk to each other all the time, so we want to provide a good service to everybody.

BROWN: Incredible work all around. Lieutenant Rick Romero, thank you so much.

ROMERO: You're welcome.

BROWN: And up next on this Sunday evening, Arizona replays the big lie. A so-called independent audit even though one of the people counting ballots is an ex-Republican legislator who claims the election was stolen.

"Arizona Republic" columnist Laurie Roberts says you just can't make this stuff up. And she joins me next. Don't miss it.




CINDY MCCAIN, WIDOW OF SENATOR JOHN MCCAIN: The whole thing is ludicrous, quite frankly. It's ludicrous. The election is over, Biden won. I know many of them don't like the outcome but, you know, elections have consequences. And so I -- you know, this does not surprise me, you know, things are just aloof and crazy out there right now with regards to the election. (END OF VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: So that was Cindy McCain on the election audit that's underway right now in Arizona. That's right, six months after the 2020 election, Arizona Republicans are still calling the results into question. But this time it's just bizarre. They have brought in a firm called the Cyber Ninjas to lead an audit of ballots from Maricopa County even though the county election board is led by Republicans. Now they're using ultra-violet light and other strange methods to examine ballots for evidence of voter fraud.

These are the same lies that led to the January 6th riot at the U.S. Capitol. Joining me now to discuss is Laurie Roberts, she is a columnist at the "Arizona Republic." The headline on her newest column asks, "Can Arizona's Election Audit Get Anymore Laughable? It can and it just did."

Laurie, thank you for joining me.


BROWN: Happy Sunday. So the firm conducting the audit is called the Cyber Ninjas. Who are they? And what are they trying to do?

ROBERTS: Well, the Cyber Ninjas is a -- they're a tiny Florida cyber security firm that has absolutely no experience in elections. It does however have a CEO, Doug Logan, who has the experience of having promoted a variety of conspiracy theories about the election all of which leads to the conclusion, his inescapable conclusion that Donald Trump really won this election. He is the man who is overseeing Arizona's election audit.

BROWN: So how does this audit come about? Because there had already been other audits, as we know, in Arizona, right? And they only confirmed the results that Donald Trump had lost the state. Why this third one?

ROBERTS: Right. Because we have a bunch of Republican elected official in the state who will not stand up to the base which is led by our state Republican Party chairwoman Kelly Ward, also known as Kim Trails Kelly from her days in the legislatures when she dragged the Department of Environmental Security up to her home district to hold hearing, an official state hearing on Kim Trails above her district that were concerning to her.

This is the head of our state Republican Party here. And they have refused to accept any results other than the results that Donald Trump won this election. There has been conspiracy theory after conspiracy theory about how Democrats stole this election, starting out shortly after the election from Sharpie pens were given out to Republican voters and they somehow negated any vote for anyone who voted with a Sharpie pen to -- you know, you name the conspiracy theory, it happens in Arizona.

It's like Groundhog Day here. It just goes on and on and on. And we're locked in the November 3rd and we can't get out of it.

BROWN: And I remember, the Sharpie-gate thing. I mean, that had been litigated. Republican lawyers working for the Trump camp were trying desperately to find anything they could to win a court case. And they couldn't, right? They had to withdraw.

ROBERTS: Well, we've had eight lawsuits. Eight unsuccessful lawsuits.


ROBERTS: Every recount required by state law, every test of the machinery, every hand count sample, sample size of the ballots, they were all done. And then the county said, OK, Republicans are still concerned and that's concerning to us, so we will hire people to come in and look at our Dominion voting systems' machinery, will run every test known to man on this machinery, to see if there was some sort of a Venezuelan-Chinese plot.

Everything came up as totally normal, 100 percent normal. This was probably one of the best elections that we had here. And yet, here we are five, six months later embroiled in this ridiculous thing that gets more ridiculous every single day.

BROWN: Sorry, I don't mean to laugh. But it's just --

ROBERTS: Go ahead, the rest of us are.

BROWN: But, OK, so the -- here's the thing. Look, if they want to go back over the election results, go at it, right? I mean, if you want to verify again, go at it. The auditors have promised transparency in the process. I'm just having a hard time keeping a straight face right now. But you say --

ROBERTS: What transparency are you talking about?

BROWN: Right.

ROBERTS: There is none.

BROWN: You say it has been anything but. But walk us through what's been going on with reporters trying to document what's happening there.


ROBERTS: All right. So this thing starts out and they say well, we can't release any information about how we're handling your ballots or how we're going to come to your front door asking you questions that we won't tell you what they are but we'll assure you that it's going to be nonpartisan people doing all this. And then they hired the Cyber Ninjas with Doug Logan and they start having the One American Network and other pro-Trump people, highly visible pro-Trump people, raising money to help pay for this thing because the state apparently only wanted $150,000 worth of transparency in audit.

And that won't -- you know, it's going to cost millions. So you've got private people paying for this thing. They didn't want to tell us how they were doing this. The Democratic Party finally took them to court and the court judge ordered them to release the information about just what are your processes and how are you doing this?

So then, at the beginning of the week, they find under court order, they released their process and so what they're doing. And under the -- their wording was, because of our ongoing efforts to be transparent, we're going to release this information. Well, no, you release the information because a judge ordered you to.

Finally reporters were allowed in after four days of blackouts after our media attorneys negotiated with them to at least get a pool reporter in there. The audit people told us that there wasn't space for reporters. Now this was a 15,000-seat arena. And there wasn't space for reporters. So eventually we got in. But as soon as we got in, one of our reporters took a picture of one of those non-partisan ballot counters who happened to be a former state legislator who not only is prominent in the "Stop the Steal" movement but was photographed on the steps of the nation's Capital on January 6th, cited the insurrection.

He claims he didn't ever go inside, but he was there. And of course we have no way to know one way or another if he went inside. But this is one of the guys counting our ballots. A former legislator by the way whose name was actually on the ballot because he actually lost his election to a Democrat and so he was not reelected.

BROWN: Right.

ROBERTS: He's one of the people counting the ballots in this non- partisan election.

BROWN: Right. And so the reporter got a picture of him and got kicked out and became a whole thing, oh, my goodness.

ROBERTS: Right. Right.

BROWN: The drama.

All right, well, Laurie Roberts, thanks for coming on the show and breaking it down for us.

ROBERTS: Thank you. Keep laughing.

BROWN: Got to laugh sometimes, right?

Well, whether or not to get the coronavirus vaccine has been a big debate among pregnant women and their partners. Dr. Natalie Crawford is a fertility doctor and is standing by ready to answer your question. Stay with us.

And also ahead, join our friend, W. Kamau Bell for a new season of his show, "UNITED SHADES OF AMERICA." This season he travels the country masked up and socially distant to talk with people about COVID-19, Black Lives Matter, and so much more. That's tonight at 10:00. Don't miss it. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We don't have a conversation.

BELL: We have a -- that's all I do.

And you know, we got a lot to talk about. I'm glad we're getting right into the deep end.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It does matter that you are not harming anybody but also that you're pro-actively being anti-racist, anti (INAUDIBLE).

BELL: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When I say white supremacy, I'm not just talking about white people.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I shouldn't be going out there with pepper spray and a baton just to keep myself safe for preaching that my life matters.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The system is broken. It needs to be completely stripped-down bare bones and rebuilt.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We're not just fighting against something. We're fighting for something.

BELL: So it's about research to collect the evidence. And then how do you put that out into the world?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We have a Web site.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We're asking questions, and see what we haven't thought about before.

BELL: I'm having some virtual reality low self-esteem.



BROWN: Well, with 31 percent of the U.S. population now fully vaccinated against COVID, the push is on for more Americans to get their shots. But many people are hesitating for a variety of reasons. Some worry how the vaccine could impact pregnancy or fertility. So to help clear things up, we want to bring in Dr. Natalie Crawford. She's a fertility expert and will answer some questions we've gotten from both of you. Having to do with both men and women. So men, don't turn the channel just yet. We've got some information for you coming.

But Dr. Crawford, I want to first ask you this question that we got from a viewer. Do you advise newly pregnant women to get vaccinated? And is there a certain point in a pregnancy where you would say it is recommended for a woman to get the vaccine?

DR. NATALIE CRAWFORD, FERTILITY PHYSICIAN: I do recommend that pregnant women get the vaccine and I completely understand the hesitancy in early pregnancy. A lot of my patients are infertility patients and we're still recommending the vaccine for them as well. As soon as you're eligible to get that, even if that's an early pregnancy. Again, we know that COVID infection, once you're pregnant, leads to a much more severe and complicated course even if you're young and healthy. And there is evidence emerging that the earlier you get the vaccine in pregnancy, there'll be better transmission of those antibodies through the placenta to protect your baby.

BROWN: So you're saying even if you're in the first trimester, you suggest getting the vaccine because the rewards outweigh the risks, right?

CRAWFORD: Exactly. There have been no associations with increase in miscarriage rates, which I think is what everybody is concerned about or hearing rumors about. And so you can get that vaccine in the first trimester if one is available to you without concern for your pregnancy.

BROWN: All right. So another question. Can lumps on your breasts be a side effect to the vaccine?

CRAWFORD: This is a great question. So let's remember that when we get the vaccine, our immune system is turned on and making antibodies. And so one of the places that these immune systems is turned in your lymph nodes. And there are lymph nodes throughout the breast and in the axilla. And so we are seeing an increase in lumps but really they're just enlarged or swollen lymph nodes that will go away.

This is causing us to see a change in mammogram recommendations. So you should get your mammogram before you get your vaccine or you should wait until four to six weeks after your last dose. That way those lymph nodes can be returned to normal. In the same fashion that when your immune system is turned on, we're also seeing reports of abnormal periods, and it's the same reason. The endometrium or that lining of the uterus, it's an immune responsive tissue.

The immune system has cells there and we know that because they interact with implantation and early pregnancy. And so when your immune system is turned on like getting the COVID-19 vaccine, we have seen people have a change in period pattern that should only last one or two months and then return to normal.

BROWN: That's so interesting. And I think that would show that the vaccine is working, right? That your immune system is responding to it and it's gearing up. For the guys, how can the vaccine affect a man's fertility?

CRAWFORD: There are a lot of concerns about this, and we have no reports and no evidence showing that the vaccine impacts male fertility at all. However, a COVID infection severely can impact male infertility, and we aren't talking about this enough. When a man gets any illness but specifically COVID has been studied, we have seen azoospermia or no sperm in the ejaculate, change in motility and change in morphology of the sperm parameters.

The sperm is very different than eggs and they are constantly regenerated. And so the environment of the male matters significantly. We've seen men have a normal semen analysis get COVID and then have no sperm. And it can take up to six months or more for that sperm to regenerate and return. So we are seeing a severe impact in male fertility from a COVID infection. Nothing recorded with the vaccine.

Therefore I strongly recommend all the men especially if you're trying to get pregnant or want to get pregnant soon, get vaccinated as soon as you can.

BROWN: This was such useful info.

Dr. Natalie Crawford, thank you so much for coming back on the show. There's just so much interests on this topic. We really appreciate it.

CRAWFORD: Thank you so much, Pamela, for having me.

BROWN: Well, chaos on the pitch, as Manchester United fans vent their anger at the club's American owners.

And it's hard to say the words late-night TV without thinking about icons like Steve Allen, Jake Parr and Johnny Carson. It's "THE STORY OF LATE NIGHT," and the executive producer Bill Carter joins me next.



BROWN: Dramatic scenes in the U.K. as angry Manchester United fans stormed the field or pitch ahead of today's game. Anger had been building since a failed attempt by the club to form a breakaway European Super League last month.

Let's bring in CNN International World Sport anchor Patrick Snell.

So, Patrick, why are fans so upset?

PATRICK SNELL, CNN HOST, WORLD SPORT: Pamela, hi. Yes, this goes back a number of years to 2005 to be precise. More on that in just a moment. First some context here for you. This is the biggest fixture in English football has been called off and it was called off earlier on Sunday. This is the biggest rivalry as well. Just imagine rivalries over here, Pamela, I don't know, at the top of my hear, say the Yankees versus the Red Sox in baseball. The Giants-Cowboys in the National Football League or Packers against the Bears.

But on Sunday, in Northwest England, fans -- look at the video now. Fans breaking into United's iconic Old Trafford arena to protest against the club's owners. The Florida based owners, the Glazer family, who also own the Super Bowl champs, the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. Now the pitch invaded hours before United were due to play the Reds from Mercy side which is historical rivalry as well. Some 35 miles down the East Lang Throw, down the M62 if you like.

But a match that could have confirmed United's local rival city as Premier League champs, so more added spice riding on this game. Protesters chanting "we want the Glazes out" in reference to those Florida based owners I mentioned. They were central as you alluded to, to that heavily criticized plan to break away and form that Super League last month, highly controversial. Demonstrators with flares, causing damage. There were injuries to a police officer, at least one as well.

Take a listen now to some of the fans for more depth as to why this is happening. Take a listen.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The reason there's so much frustration is they've not communicated with the fans for 16 years and that leads to this kind of anger we've seen on this level.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They only think about money, don't they? You know, that's all they're interested in, money. That's their only motivation. They don't care about English football. They don't know the culture.


SNELL: So the match currently postponed as we speak, Pamela. When will it get replayed, we're still awaiting for news on that. Now in a statement the English Premier League saying this is a collective decision from the police, "Both clubs, the Premier League and local authorities, we understand and respect the strength of feeling but condemn all acts of violence, criminal damage and trespass." And part of the club's statement as well reading, "Our fans are passionate about Manchester United and we completely acknowledge the right to free expression and peaceful protest. However, we regret the disruption to the team and actions which put other fans, staff and the police in danger."

And just to make this clear, the vast majority of fans there at Old Trafford Sunday, Pamela, they were peacefully protesting. It was very much the minority involved here.


There were hundred, hundred plus people breaking into the Old Trafford arena. When that happens the match just can't go ahead. And we'd love the Glazer family to come on and have their say because I know for a fact the fans want to hear from them directly. No question about that. Back to you.

BROWN: Absolutely. We love to have them on the show to discuss.


BROWN: All right, Patrick Snell, thank you so much.

Well, for the past six decades late-night television has grown from a shun the dark experiment to a thriving cultural phenomenon. And now a CNN Original Series examines how late-night TV not only keeps us laughing but shapes how we see the world. Here's a look at one of the genre's and television's most famous moments.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Keep your arm extended and put only one revolution on the --


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Once around on the way.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The classic at Ames Tomahawk. The fact that that was live, unexpected.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They went nuts. It was spectacular.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And as Ames goes to retrieve the Tomahawk, Carson grabs him by the arm, pulls him back.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When Ed Ames through that Tomahawk and Johnny wouldn't let him, (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can watch how he works with Ed Ames to keep them in the moment and extend the laugh is just great stuff.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He just milks the laughter. He just waits.

JOHNNY CARSON, LATE-NIGHT TV HOST: I didn't even know you were viewing it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think Johnny Carson became Johnny Carson in that moment.


BROWN: And joining me now is CNN media analyst and executive producer of "THE STORY OF LATE NIGHT," Bill Carter.

Great to have you on to talk about this. It's so fun to see that older footage there. And, you know, back when late-night was first created in the early '50s, hosts and producers and network executives really had no idea what they were doing or what it would turn into, right?

BILL CARTER, CNN MEDIA ANALYST: They had no idea. They just had empty time. People used to turn off their television. There was nothing on after 11:00. And NBC said, well, let's try it, maybe we'll get advertisers or let's be funny if we can. They hired a guy named Steve Allen and off they went.

BROWN: Wow. So what made late-night TV which started as you said this experimental way to sell more advertising become not only a success from an entertainment standpoint but become a place where the country discuss and analyze all kinds of issues through humor? CARTER: Well, essentially they had a time to fill so they started to

put guests on who are not just entertainers, but actual politicians and authors, and things like that. And it became kind of a place for the national discussion to be held. Jack Paar did it. He brought in the monologue and then Johnny Carson of course made it a national ritual every night to hear what he said in his monologue.

BROWN: So the COVID pandemic, as we know, has left no aspect of society untouched and late-night TV has been no exception to that. What changes did COVID bring to late-night that are here to stay?

CARTER: Well, I think, you know, one of the things is what we're doing right now, Pamela, because I'm at home and you're interviewing me. And I don't have to show up at the studio and they didn't have to have people in their studios. They were doing in from their rec room. I think that's going to be a way of the future. I think there's going to be very much more experiment and of course streaming means they'll probably not have to do topical jokes on shows like that because they're going to be on a streaming system. So I do think there's a lot of change coming.

BROWN: It's interesting you say that. I hope as a journalist that people will come in and still to do interviews once this pandemic is over because I just think there's something that's so great about human-to-human contact. But I think this pandemic has set -- certainly set a different tone in that regard. People realize, oh, this is so easy, I can just stay at home and do this.

CARTER: Right.

BROWN: What do you think is the greatest of all time when it comes to late-night hosts?

CARTER: Well, you have to give it to Carson. He did it for 30 years and he changed the game. I mean, he made it a national thing. He had so many viewers. He once did this, a marriage of singer named Tiny Tim. It got 40 million viewers. That's bigger than the population of Poland, watching a late-night show. It was so spectacular. And everybody who was anybody had to go on with Carson. So after that it broke into more separate pieces and great talent, fantastic talent. But you really have to put Carson at the top.

BROWN: I was on Johnny Carson show. My mom was pregnant with me. Does that count?



BROWN: All right. Bill Carter, thank you so much for coming on. Appreciate it.

CARTER: Good for you. We should go back and find that clip, fellas. We need to find that clip.

BROWN: It's somewhere in YouTube. I don't know. All right, thanks so much.

CARTER: Thank you.

BROWN: Well, "THE STORY OF LATE NIGHT" is up next at the top of the hour right here on CNN.



BROWN: Well, cheers all around after three NASA astronauts and a Japanese astronaut safely returned to earth after a six-month trip from to the International Space Station. The SpaceX crew Dragon Capsule splashed down on the Gulf of Mexico just before 3:00 a.m. completing NASA's first nighttime water landing in more than 50 years.

Thank you so much for joining me this Sunday Evening. I'm Pamela Brown --