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Live Coverage of Derek Chauvin Trial; Witness Donald Williams' 911 Call is Entered As Exhibit 20; Examination and Cross-Examination of Donald Williams. Aired 10:30-11a ET

Aired March 30, 2021 - 10:30   ET



MATTHEW FRANK, PROSECUTING ATTORNEY: OK. If you heard that today, would you be able to recognize it as the 911 call that you made?


FRANK: All right. We have now marked that as exhibit 20. And, Your Honor, we would ask that it be -- well, we are offering it now as exhibit 20.


FRANK: All right. So if we can at this point then play exhibit 20?



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 911, what's the address of the emergency?

WILLIAMS: Oh, is there any -- (INAUDIBLE) killing -- killing here in front of a Chicago store. He just pretty much just killed this guy that wasn't resisting arrest. He had his knee on the dude's neck the whole time, officer 987, the man wouldn't -- (INAUDIBLE) stopped breathing. He wasn't resisting arrest or nothing, he was already in handcuffs and they pretty much just killed the dude. I don't even know if he's dead for sure, but he was not responsive when the ambulances came and got him.

And the officer that was just out here left, the one that actually just murdered (INAUDIBLE) everybody on 36th, 38th and Chicago.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, would you like to speak with a sergeant?

WILLIAMS: Yes, like, that was bogus --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes (INAUDIBLE), hold on, one moment.

WILLIAMS: -- what they did to this (ph) man (ph), he was unresponsive, he wasn't resisting arrest or any of it (ph).

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, let me get you over to the desk. You can (ph) (INAUDIBLE) request to speak with a sergeant, OK?

WILLIAMS: OK, I'm standing here talking to -- with another off-duty firefighter that was standing here, watching it in front of us as well.


WILLIAMS: And she told them to check their -- the man's pulse, but they didn't even check it, the pulse.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You have reached the city of Minneapolis. To reach someone in our property crimes --

WILLIAMS: Y'all murderers, bro, y'all are murderers, pal, you're going to kill yourself, I already know it, two more years, you're going to shoot yourself. Murderers, bro. Y'all need to just (ph) murderers, bro.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Minneapolis 3rd Precinct.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hey, it's dispatch --


WILLIAMS: Yes, man, I want to speak to a supervisor --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: -- hold on, sir. OK.

WILLIAMS: -- yes, go ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, he wants to speak with a supervisor relating to 3:20's (ph) (INAUDIBLE) Cup Foods.

WILLIAMS: They killed that man in front of the store --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Twenty-eight, 33, 46, May 25, 2020.


FRANK: And is that -- is that an accurate recording of the call you made?

WILLIAMS: That is correct, I believe (ph) so.

FRANK: And at the beginning, you referred to officer 987. Where did you get that number from?

WILLIAMS: Honestly, it was just visually, popped in my head. Like I --


WILLIAMS: -- I looked at his badge, and that's what I read on his badge. FRANK: And so whose badge, which officer were you referring to?

WILLIAMS: The officer sitting over there.

FRANK: OK. And was that also the officer that had his knee on George Floyd's neck?

WILLIAMS: That is correct.

FRANK: And for the record, when your previous answered, you were pointing to the defendant, Mr. Chauvin?

WILLIAMS: That's correct.

FRANK: OK. And -- and so the -- the purpose in making -- what was the purpose in making that 911 call at that time?

WILLIAMS: I just felt like that was the right thing to do. I didn't know what else to do. I didn't -- I didn't know what to do, but (ph) call.

FRANK: And -- I'm sorry I cut you off.

WILLIAMS: But call.

FRANK: And the response then was to transfer you to a sergeant, correct?

WILLIAMS: That is correct.

FRANK: And then at some point, the call -- it sounds like you're talking to Officer Thao. Do you recall if you were actually talking to Officer Thao at that point?

WILLIAMS: That is correct, I was. Because I think at the moment -- or I don't think at the moment that I was making the call, he proceeded to, like, intimidate me and stick his camera in my face, his bodycam, and --

FRANK: OK. And the call sort of ends abruptly. Did you hang up, terminate the call?

WILLIAMS: I'm not 100 percent sure. But I may have because I felt threatened once our interaction happened in front of the store with me and Thao.

FRANK: And then from there, after hanging up, did you stick around for a while and talk to some other people there?

WILLIAMS: Yes, I wanted (ph) to do my own investigation.

FRANK: You honor, I have no further questions.

CAHILL: Mr. Nelson?

[10:35:09] ERIC NELSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Good morning, sir.

WILLIAMS: Good morning.

NELSON: Can I ask what you're looking at?

WILLIAMS: Just notes, that's all.

NELSON: OK, I'm going to ask that you put those to the side, OK?

WILLIAMS: Cool beans.

NELSON: All right. Thank you for your patience yesterday, thank you for being here this morning. I just have some follow-up questions for you, all right?


NELSON: You testified yesterday that you started wrestling in the 7th grade, is that correct?

WILLIAMS: That is correct.

NELSON: And over time, you were talking about how you learned how to control your body weight, right?

WILLIAMS: That is correct.

NELSON: And one of the things that you kind of talked about was when, early in your instruction in wrestling, you call it, I think, flow wrestling.

WILLIAMS: That's correct.

NELSON: And as I understand that -- and correct me if I'm wrong -- flow wrestling is kind of learning -- learning how to kind of keep your center of balance, learning how to -- sometimes it may feel you should use your arm when you should really use your leg, kind of just learning how your body works, right?

WILLIAMS: Yes, correct, less resistance.

NELSON: Less resistance. So sometimes less resistance is actually better in certain circumstances?

WILLIAMS: Repeat that?

NELSON: Sure. I mean, if you're on the mat, right? And your instinct is to push your arm out to the side to try to use your body weight to roll, you may want to actually use your leg to roll the other way, right? Kind of like flow?

WILLIAMS: Kind of but not really.

NELSON: Ok, how would you describe just the flow of wrestling? WILLIAMS: Flow is less -- flow is more I'm flowing with you without

using my strength, I'm flowing with you going 50, 60 percent of it, I'm flowing with you, letting you get into a half-nelson and you feel the half-nelson, you're in it, and now you're flowing, your partner's letting you flow off your back and get into a position where you can stand up and to escape.

Flow is where my partner's letting me get in on a double, and I'm letting him finish the double and now I'm flowing into my offensive or my defensive position and getting away. So different positioning.

NELSON: Right, right. So you're learning how to use your body weight against the weight of the other person, you're learning how to just get in and out of moves, right?

WILLIAMS: Flowing.

NELSON: Flowing, right. And that's something that you learned, you know, at a young age in the sport of wrestling.

WILLIAMS: Correct.

NELSON: And as you continued your wrestling career, you testified that you wrestled all the way through high school, and then into college for a couple of years as well, right?

WILLIAMS: That is correct.

NELSON: And you would agree that wrestling is a sport.

WILLIAMS: Wrestling is a lifestyle.

NELSON: OK. There are rules, there are points, there are referees, so there are -- there's a sport to wrestling, right?

WILLIAMS: Correct.

NELSON: And I understand, as a wrestler, it's a lifestyle, right?


NELSON: But to the kind of the casual observer, maybe it's just a sport, right?

WILLIAMS: Correct.

NELSON: All right. But you know, you're learning how to keep your center of gravity lower, and grapple with people, right?

WILLIAMS: Correct.

NELSON: And then you testified that after you kind of got out of college or finished your career in college, that you started moving more towards the mixed martial arts, right?

WILLIAMS: Correct. NELSON: And so you were training in jiu-jitsu, I believe you said?

WILLIAMS: That is correct.

NELSON: All right. And again, jiu-jitsu is a form of martial arts, right?

WILLIAMS: Correct.

NELSON: Lots of forms of martial arts, right?

WILLIAMS: Correct.

NELSON: Judo, karate, krav maga, these are all various forms of martial arts that you have some general familiarity with, right?

WILLIAMS: Correct.

NELSON: But your training is specifically in jiu-jitsu, correct?

WILLIAMS: No. I'm a martial artist. I train jiu-jitsu, muay thai, stick (ph) fighting. Like I'm a martial artist, I don't just train jiu-jitsu --


WILLIAMS: -- boxing, you know, wrestling all (ph) Is putting to one side the fighter, you're not just working on your ground game, you're working on your stand-up, you're working, you know, your muay thai, your kickboxing, things like that. That's what a martial artist is.

NELSON: OK. So you incorporate several forms of martial arts into what you study?

WILLIAMS: That is correct.

NELSON: All right. And again, the notion of a chokehold is very common within the martial arts community, right?

WILLIAMS: That is correcting, submissions.

NELSON: Submissions. And there are many forms, right?

WILLIAMS: Correct.

NELSON: Like the triangle or the rear naked chokehold, all sorts of different types of chokeholds or submission holds that apply.

WILLIAMS: That is correct.

NELSON: All right. And again, I understand that martial arts is a lifestyle, but there is a sport to it as well, right?

WILLIAMS: Yes, a competitive side to it, yes, sports, correct.

[10:40:00] NELSON: And I'm just talking generally, I'm not talking about the MMA fighting yet. But just even as a martial artist, there are competitions with rules and referees and things of that nature, right?

WILLIAMS: That is correct.

NELSON: All right. And when you -- whether you wrestle or you compete in the mixed -- or in the martial arts, there are weight classes, right?

WILLIAMS: That is correct. Well, yes, that's correct. MMA has weight classes, jiu-jitsu tournaments, there's open weights. So you win your weight division, you have a chance to wrestle an open division, which usually -- if I'm competing in a jiu-jitsu tournament during an open division, which is open weight.

NELSON: All right. So again, generally, like, looking at your career as a wrestler, you, what weight did you wrestle at?

WILLIAMS: I wrestled anywhere from 106 to 141 in college.

NELSON: OK. And when you would competitively wrestle, you would wrestle with other people who were in that same weight class, right?

WILLIAMS: Correct.

NELSON: And then in the martial arts, in the competitions for the martial arts, there are weight classes but there's also this open weight class, right?

WILLIAMS: That's correct, jiu-jitsu.

NELSON: In jiu-jitsu. And so you, as a 141-pound guy, may wrestle -- or may grapple with someone who's 180 pounds?

WILLIAMS: Or 220, 210 --

NELSON: Right, or a hundred, right? I mean --

WILLIAMS: Yes, yes.

NELSON: -- OK. But then about 10 years ago, you testified that you started with mixed martial arts.

WILLIAMS: Repeat that, please.

NELSON: I believe that you testified, yesterday, that about 10 years ago, you began training in mixed martial arts.

WILLIAMS: Correct, martial arts. We like --


WILLIAMS: -- MMA, mixed martial arts, yes.

NELSON: All right. And maybe I'm confused. Like, did you -- of your progression. So you go from wrestling to boxing to mixed martial arts?

WILLIAMS: So I went from wrestling in college to training in a martial arts school --


WILLIAMS: -- which covers martial arts, muay thai, jiu-jitsu, boxing, mixed martial arts, wrestling.

NELSON: OK. And that's -- and because there are some -- I mean, again, there are some businesses or gyms that will train in a specific form of a martial art, right?

WILLIAMS: Correct. Yes, just do -- you have boxing gyms, you have jiu-jitsu gyms, you have muay thai gyms --

NELSON: Or krav maga or --

WILLIAMS: Yes, whatever, anything, stuff like that. You know, you have different specialties of martial arts for different schools. But some schools, which one of the schools I was at, The Academy under Greg Nelson, he taught martial arts, it was a martial arts school.

NELSON: OK. I'm understanding now that you went from the wrestling to the mixed martial arts, and about 10 years ago was it that you started competing in a mixed martial arts?

WILLIAMS: I started competing right away. I went from wrestling in college to being one of the top amateur fighters in the Midwest, finishing, just growing as a martial artist. I started, you know, at a different gym before I got to the Academy, learned to -- I was a wrestler. I didn't know anything but wrestling, you know, at the time.

So I'd take people down and (INAUDIBLE) and then switched the gyms and come (ph) to Greg, and I learned more jiu-jitsu, I learned more kicking, I learned different elbows, I learned, you know, different martial arts techniques, chokes, submissions, arm bars, things like that, spinning back defenses (ph), flying knees, I learned that.

NELSON: Right, OK. When we talk about an MMA fight --

WILLIAMS: Correct.

NELSON: -- right? All of those various methods of fighting are employed in those fights, right?

WILLIAMS: Correct.

NELSON: So if I am a boxer, and I start -- I'm in a boxing match, right? I can't kick you for example.


NELSON: But if I'm in an MMA fight, I may punch you, I might kick you, I might choke you, I -- short of biting, right?

WILLIAMS: Correct.

NELSON: And the point of a mixed martial arts fight is to actually knock the person out, render him unconscious, right?

WILLIAMS: That is correct, control (ph) the (ph) cage (ph), yes.

NELSON: We -- you referenced the cage match, right?


NELSON: I mean, that's what we kind of think about when we think about mixed martial arts fights.

WILLIAMS: Yes. Is you've got a cage fight, which you see, UFC, Bellator, LFA, all things like that. And then you have martial arts tournaments where it's just strictly jiu-jitsu. You're in your Gi, you've got blue belts, black belts, white belts, purple belts, they all compete at a level. No striking, just all grappling.

And then you have the ones that they're (ph) -- us in a cage, we do everything, you know, punch, kick, you know, all that stuff --

NELSON: Right.

WILLIAMS: -- yes.

NELSON: And I believe, according to your professional record -- because you had an amateur career and then you had a professional career, right?

WILLIAMS: Correct.

NELSON: And you had 11 professional fights?

WILLIAMS: Possibly, yes, I don't even know how many fights I technically had, so.


NELSON: But you know the internet exists, right?

WILLIAMS: Yes, yes.

NELSON: You know your statistics are saved?


NELSON: All right. And so if I say that your professional record was five wins, six losses in 11 fights, would you disagree with that?

WILLIAMS: I think it might be six to six, just yes, I think I'm actually six to six.


WILLIAMS: Yes. NELSON: And when you fight in an MMA fight, in these kind of open freestyle fights, you fight in a weight class, right?

WILLIAMS: Correct.

NELSON: People who are similar in terms of their weight. They may be taller, they may be shorter, but they're in the same weight class?

WILLIAMS: Correct.

NELSON: Right, OK. And again, I mean, there's a referee, right?

WILLIAMS: Correct.

NELSON: And certain fights, when you get someone into a submission hold, the referee may come and lift up the person's arm to see if they're conscious or unconscious, right?

WILLIAMS: That's correct.

NELSON: That's a way of determining whether or not the fight --

WILLIAMS: That's if they're not moving. I mean, if they're not -- that's if they're not moving, if they're not fighting. So if like that -- yes, the referee has to -- he has to make sure that the person is conscious so he might say, keep moving. If they're not moving, he might check, you know?

And sometimes the opponent will know that that person's out, so the opponent'd be looking at the ref, like, look, he's out, like he's out, he's out, you know? Things like that.

NELSON: Right. And sometimes you don't know that they're out, and that's why the ref comes and picks up the arm, right?

WILLIAMS: Most opponents know when they put their person out.

NELSON: But it's possible, right? It's a yes or no question.

WILLIAMS: It's possible, how about that.

NELSON: All right.

As a part of your training in the mixed martial arts, you voluntarily submitted to being put into chokeholds, correct?

WILLIAMS: At practice.

NELSON: At practice, right. And you also practiced these moves, right?

WILLIAMS: That's correct.

NELSON: Putting -- rendering other people in practice unconscious, right?

WILLIAMS: Yes, that's correct.

NELSON: And in your professional career, you were also at times have rendered people unconscious and been rendered unconscious yourself?

WILLIAMS: Correct.

NELSON: Through one of these chokeholds?

WILLIAMS: Correct.

NELSON: Now, you described these chokeholds generally yesterday. These chokeholds, like you described an air choke and a blood choke --

WILLIAMS: Correct.

NELSON: -- you remember your conversation about that yesterday?

WILLIAMS: Yes, correct.

NELSON: All right. So when you use these forms of chokeholds, whether that's an air choke or a blood choke, they use those in various forms of martial arts, right? Like judo, krav maga. A chokehold is sort of across the board in terms of martial arts?

WILLIAMS: Correct.

NELSON: With the exception of maybe the stick fighting, right?

WILLIAMS: Correct.

NELSON: All right. And you testified that you -- at your academy, you trained with a lot of law enforcement officers, military people, and law enforcement from both state and federal levels, right?

WILLIAMS: That is correct.

NELSON: And you said you didn't -- sometimes you don't even know that that's what they do, right?

WILLIAMS: That's correct, (INAUDIBLE).

NELSON: And sometimes you get to know these guys because you're fighting with them, right?


NELSON: You're training with them, and they tell you a little bit about their lives, right?

WILLIAMS: Sometimes. I mean, we do good (ph), a brotherhood of the gym. You know, some people interact outside with personal lives, some people just interact in the gyms, you know, and build relationships. So I see them every day, basically, like a (ph) I (ph) work (ph) there (ph), going to see every day, I interact with you there and I'm (ph) going to interact with you outside of work, you know?

NELSON: Right, OK.

WILLIAMS: And then some that I interact with outside the gym.

NELSON: OK. But I just want to make sure, you've never officially been invited to go to, like, the Minneapolis Police Academy to train law enforcement in the use of force --


NELSON: -- or the use of these chokeholds?


NELSON: And -- or any other police academy for that reason?

WILLIAMS: No, I witnessed my sensei, Greg Nelson --

NELSON: I'm asking about you, sir. Have you ever officially been asked to train police officers specifically in the use of chokeholds?

WILLIAMS: No, just witnessed it.


Now, air chokes, you described air chokes yesterday. Air chokes are from the front, correct?

WILLIAMS: Correct.

NELSON: And that's because what you're doing is you're actually cutting off the air to the trachea --

WILLIAMS: Correct, trachea, correct.

NELSON: -- right? So you can render someone unconscious by coming from the front of the neck and cutting off their airway, which renders them unconscious.


WILLIAMS: Repeat that?

NELSON: Sure. And air choke is a front choke, agreed?


NELSON: And what you're doing in an air choke is you're cutting off the air supply or the oxygen supply from the front of the neck, correct?

WILLIAMS: Correct.

NELSON: And in doing so, you can render a person unconscious, correct?

WILLIAMS: From an air choke? I'm not a medical person, so I won't answer that.


On a blood choke, right? What you're doing is you're cutting off -- and you described yesterday the blood supply to the brain, right?

WILLIAMS: A side choke, correct.

NELSON: A side choke. And you described several different types of chokeholds, like the reverse -- or the rear naked chokehold, I think it's called, or the triangle. What you're doing is you're actually cutting off the blood supply to both sides of the neck in those?

WILLIAMS: Repeat that.

NELSON: When you do a blood choke, what you're trained on generally is to limit the blood supply to both sides of the neck.

WILLIAMS: No, a blood choke is attack one side of the neck.

NELSON: It's just one side of the neck, OK.

WILLIAMS: A blood choke is attack the side of a neck. So a blood (ph) choke (ph) from here, side of the neck.

NELSON: Right, but you're using your weight and you're actually cutting off both sides. Using your body and your arm, right? And you're actually protecting the trachea or the airway in the crux of your --

WILLIAMS: You're mixing chokes, so you're mixing your air chokes and your blood chokes together. The air choke is attack the trachea, and side choke is attack the side of the neck.

NELSON: So if I have someone in a chokehold, right? And a blood chokehold, from the -- with my -- using my arm, I may have my hand behind that person, right? No?

WILLIAMS: No, it's not. Attacking the side of the neck, not the trachea. You're attacking the trachea, I'm (INAUDIBLE) side choke.

NELSON: I'm saying that the trachea is protected by the crux of the elbow. And so you're using the forearm and the bicep to cut off both sides of the blood?

WILLIAMS: Correct, from here to here, right, you're cutting off one side of the neck on a choke.

NELSON: OK. How long does that usually take, in your experience, to render someone unconscious?

WILLIAMS: You can go unconscious on a blood choke within seconds. Some people don't even know that they're about to go unconscious.

NELSON: Right. You were interviewed by the FBI, right?

WILLIAMS: That is correct.

NELSON: Right, I believe it was Agent Garvey (ph) of the FBI, right? Are you -- does -- are you looking at some notes to refresh your recollection?

WILLIAMS: Yes, I have it in front of me. That's correct.

NELSON: Would that help -- would that help you refresh your recollection?

WILLIAMS: I'm here, that's why I was just opening it up, that's correct.

NELSON: It's kind of weird, we have rules in court, you have to testify from your memory, not your notes. But if you need your --

WILLIAMS: it's not notes, I'm just -- the name is on the front of the page.

NELSON: What I'm saying is if you need to refer to your whatever it is you have in front of you to help you refresh your recollection, we need to get permission from the court to do that.

WILLIAMS: Correct.

NELSON: It's a weird procedure that we --

WILLIAMS: I don't know his name, so I looked to see what his name was, correct.

NELSON: OK. Would it help you remember his or her name if you looked at your paper in front of the (ph) --

WILLIAMS: That's correct because it's in the paper.


NELSON: OK. Your honor, may he refer his notes?

CAHILL: Mr. Williams, refer to your notes silently.

WILLIAMS: Correct.

CAHILL: And once it's refreshed your memory, then close the notes back up and testify from your memory.

WILLIAMS: Great. Definitely.

NELSON: Thank you.

WILLIAMS: What was the name one more time, sorry?

NELSON: I believe it was -- there were two agents there, right?

WILLIAMS: Correct.

NELSON: One was from the BCA names Angela (ph) Garvey (ph) --

WILLIAMS: That one's correct.

NELSON: -- and then Eckhart (ph) is the last name of the other.

WILLIAMS: I believe that -- yes, that is correct.

NELSON: OK. And you were interviewed by those agents on May the 29th of last year, correct?

WILLIAMS: Correct, I believe so, I --

NELSON: You -- you know, we have a transcript of that statement and the reports about it. Would you dispute me if I told you it was May 29th?

WILLIAMS: I don't recollect (ph) the dates.

NELSON: OK, fair enough. And do you recall them asking you about blood chokes and how long it takes to choke someone out?

WILLIAMS: Correct.

NELSON: And you told them three to five seconds?

WILLIAMS: Correct, just like I just told you, within seconds.

NELSON: Right. And an MMA round is three minutes, right?

WILLIAMS: No, that's for amateurs. MMA round is five-minute rounds. Three minutes for amateurs, five minutes for pros.

NELSON: All right. So three to five minutes are per round of an MMA fight?

WILLIAMS: Of an MMA fight.

NELSON: Right, OK.

Have you ever -- whether it be in your training -- after you have rendered someone unconscious, where they come back to and they start fighting again?


WILLIAMS: Inside of a fight?

NELSON: Mm-hmm.

WILLIAMS: Have I choked someone and they came back to? No.


WILLIAMS: Like (INAUDIBLE) finish fighting, the referee will --

NELSON: Have you seen that happen in practice? WILLIAMS: Restate -- rephrase -- or please repeat the question.

NELSON: I will do so. Will someone -- you rendered someone unconscious, right? You're fighting with them, they've gone unconscious. You released your chokehold from them. Have you ever experienced someone coming back and starting to fight you again, right away?

WILLIAMS: Yes. In -- personally, no. Have I seen it? Yes.

NELSON: OK, fair enough. So you've seen, after someone is unconscious, they come back to consciousness and they start fighting right away again? You've seen that happen?

WILLIAMS: I've seen it on the UFC multiple times, where when someone gets choked out, they come back to and they continue to try to fight. And the referee has to explain to them that they've been unconscious. I've been knocked out, and I had a comeback conscious, and the first thing I wanted to do was continue the fight. And then I was in the locker room and they told me that the fight was already over, so I have no recollections of what happened in that moment.

NELSON: OK, great. Now, you testified that one of the things that you do and have done in your career is to work as a security guard, right?

WILLIAMS: That is correct.

NELSON: And you've worked as a security guard in a variety of contexts, right?

WILLIAMS: That is correct.

NELSON: So you've done some personal security for people?

WILLIAMS: Correct.

NELSON: And you've done some like kind of doorman stuff, right?

WILLIAMS: That's correct.

NELSON: Bouncing, I guess is what you would call it?

WILLIAMS: Correct.

NELSON: And you said that you have worked alongside the Minneapolis Police Department in those club-type situations with off-duty officers and on-duty officers?

WILLIAMS: That is correct.

NELSON: OK. The -- in that capacity, have you ever had to deal with a crowd of people?

WILLIAMS: That is correct.

NELSON: Have you ever had to deal with a crowd of people that was upset?

WILLIAMS: Definitely.

NELSON: Is it easier or harder to deal with a crowd that is upset?

WILLIAMS: Each person's different. Me, I'm able to deal with a high capacity of distractions, different things going on and still be able to be professional and focused on what's going on in front of me.

NELSON: OK. And have you ever been involved in a situation where there's a crowd that's upset and you were afraid of them?

WILLIAMS: Correct.

NELSON: OK. I'd like to direct your attention to the incident on May 25th of 2020 that you've testified about. You were shown an exhibit yesterday that shows that you arrived at the Cup Foods on the 38th Street side of Cup Foods at 8:23 and 12 seconds. Do you --

WILLIAMS: Don't recollect the time, sir.

NELSON: OK. Would you like me to show you that exhibit, or would you agree that that's probably correct? I can show you the exhibit.

WILLIAMS: Yes, show me the exhibit.

NELSON: All right.

I am showing you exhibit 18. You can see that?

WILLIAMS: Yes, correct.

NELSON: This was already admitted into evidence yesterday. You would agree that exhibit 18 shows you walking along 38th Street on May 25th, 2020 at 8:23 and 12 seconds?

WILLIAMS: Correct.

NELSON: OK. So I'm not trying to trick you, all right?

WILLIAMS: That's fine.

NELSON: All right. And it's fair to say that prior to your arrival there, you had no idea what had been going on in the area?

WILLIAMS: No, not at all. Like I said, I just seen squad cars, didn't know what was going on.

NELSON: Right. And you testified that as you kind of came around the corner, your energy sort of pulled you towards that incident, right?

WILLIAMS: Yes, that is totally correct.


NELSON: So you would have absolutely no idea that an ambulance was called three minutes before you arrived?